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Two most frustrating things about the game for me
#1
Hi there, I bought the game recently and I'm enjoying it a lot. I'm #1 in silver league right now on my first game, about 4x the points of #2, but I won't get into difficulty.

1) In recruitment, epic level is tied to character level. This wouldn't be a problem, except the people who are available for recruitment seem to completely screw up their skills. I've done three of the highest recruitment campaigns I can do (7500 gold!), with two researched upgrades to '+1 adventurer in recruitment', and I've gotten zero guys I can use. Either the two classes they pick don't work well together, or their skills don't let them fill any party role in combat, or the enhancements (gems?) to each skill don't help them out. If you have spectral sword WITHOUT any +skill effect, then it's a huge problem and I'm not going to hire you.


So ideally I'd hire someone who has a very low level because then I can make sure they get decent skills - but epicness is tied to character level, so that means they'll only have one star and are worthless. My only option is to keep throwing away massive piles of gold hoping for someone usable in recruitment campaigns.

2) There's no way to compare all the numbers other than experience/guessing. This quest is 'level 3', can my party of 'level 5' adventurers beat it? No, of course not. 3 means 'around 10' when comparing these numbers. My level 12 guy has an attack of 495. Is that a lot? I have no idea. Which should I put on him, the gear with +20 agility or +3% resistance? Is +5% damage better than +19 attack? Etc. 

I love the theme of this game and I have fun playing it, but these two things are super frustrating.
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#2
Agreed for #1.
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#3
(09-22-2016, 12:54 PM)fdsdfg Wrote: Hi there, I bought the game recently and I'm enjoying it a lot. I'm #1 in silver league right now on my first game, about 4x the points of #2, but I won't get into difficulty.

1) In recruitment, epic level is tied to character level. This wouldn't be a problem, except the people who are available for recruitment seem to completely screw up their skills. I've done three of the highest recruitment campaigns I can do (7500 gold!), with two researched upgrades to '+1 adventurer in recruitment', and I've gotten zero guys I can use. Either the two classes they pick don't work well together, or their skills don't let them fill any party role in combat, or the enhancements (gems?) to each skill don't help them out. If you have spectral sword WITHOUT any +skill effect, then it's a huge problem and I'm not going to hire you.


So ideally I'd hire someone who has a very low level because then I can make sure they get decent skills - but epicness is tied to character level, so that means they'll only have one star and are worthless. My only option is to keep throwing away massive piles of gold hoping for someone usable in recruitment campaigns.

2) There's no way to compare all the numbers other than experience/guessing. This quest is 'level 3', can my party of 'level 5' adventurers beat it? No, of course not. 3 means 'around 10' when comparing these numbers. My level 12 guy has an attack of 495. Is that a lot? I have no idea. Which should I put on him, the gear with +20 agility or +3% resistance? Is +5% damage better than +19 attack? Etc. 

I love the theme of this game and I have fun playing it, but these two things are super frustrating.

Hi and thanks for sharing your thoughts about the game.

In a general sense, we are putting together different new features and a massive balance rehaul to be included in our next update. Once than is done we will have a look at the recruitment campaigns for sure. We have several ways to change things up a bit. That and Prestige classes should help the late game.

We also decided to make the game use randomness to generate characters to force players to adapt themselves according to what is available during the current game. If it was possible to have exactly the characters you want all the time then every game would become quickly the exact same. That being said, we will have a better look at the recruitment campaigns before the full release and I hear what you're saying.

Regarding your second point now. Well, Quests have Threat Levels (10) while characters span over 25 levels (15 for now, it's coming soon). So there's a margin of error within a specific T. Level to keep you guessing. Although the uncertainty can be removed by scouting the Quest ahead of time. If you hover over the enemies on the Quest description you can see their levels. Same thing during the Battles where the levels are shown and the resistances and damage types bonuses revealed if the Quest was scouted. All our Battle scenarios have been recently revised for the balance rehaul I was mentionning. The difficulty margin for each T. Level should be more precise.

Your stats are also used for Skill Checks (and starting in the next update we will have quest that can be accomplsihed with skill checks). Damage bonuses and resistances are only useful in combat.

But, yes you will have to toy with the system and test things out to figure exactly what is better in a way. That being said, the game can be finished without that level of min/maxing for sure. We will also have 3 difficulty settings coming up, perhaps to complete the game on the hardest setting it will be required but the necessary experience should have been acquired by then.

Hopefully the features, tweaks and balancing we are putting together help.

Thanks again for the feedback, it's always useful and appreciated.
Frank "Lalight" Lalumière
ManaVoid Entertainment Dev Team
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#4
(09-23-2016, 07:52 AM)Frank Wrote: Hi and thanks for sharing your thoughts about the game.

In a general sense, we are putting together different new features and a massive balance rehaul to be included in our next update. Once than is done we will have a look at the recruitment campaigns for sure. We have several ways to change things up a bit. That and Prestige classes should help the late game.

We also decided to make the game use randomness to generate characters to force players to adapt themselves according to what is available during the current game. If it was possible to have exactly the characters you want all the time then every game would become quickly the exact same. That being said, we will have a better look at the recruitment campaigns before the full release and I hear what you're saying.

Regarding your second point now. Well, Quests have Threat Levels (10) while characters span over 25 levels (15 for now, it's coming soon). So there's a margin of error within a specific T. Level to keep you guessing. Although the uncertainty can be removed by scouting the Quest ahead of time. If you hover over the enemies on the Quest description you can see their levels. Same thing during the Battles where the levels are shown and the resistances and damage types bonuses revealed if the Quest was scouted. All our Battle scenarios have been recently revised for the balance rehaul I was mentionning. The difficulty margin for each T. Level should be more precise.

Your stats are also used for Skill Checks (and starting in the next update we will have quest that can be accomplsihed with skill checks). Damage bonuses and resistances are only useful in combat.

But, yes you will have to toy with the system and test things out to figure exactly what is better in a way. That being said, the game can be finished without that level of min/maxing for sure. We will also have 3 difficulty settings coming up, perhaps to complete the game on the hardest setting it will be required but the necessary experience should have been acquired by then.

Hopefully the features, tweaks and balancing we are putting together help.

Thanks again for the feedback, it's always useful and appreciated.


Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful answer. Everything you say is reasonable and makes sense. However, I'd still like to give my feedback on these points:

Quote:We also decided to make the game use randomness to generate characters to force players to adapt themselves according to what is available during the current game. If it was possible to have exactly the characters you want all the time then every game would become quickly the exact same. That being said, we will have a better look at the recruitment campaigns before the full release and I hear what you're saying.

I agree in principle, but there are a lot of 'lame duck' abilities that can get chosen which mess with it. If a hero has "+5% adventurer ice damage" gems, and no abilities that deal ice damage, there's nothing I can do to adapt to it. He's just missing a buff that he should have. There ends up being a huge gap between 'spectral sword with nothing useful' and 'spectral sword with +50% skill effect and -2 ap'. Right now, as far as I can tell, you get two choices picked randomly from a pool of properties. Some are directly tied to the skill, some are global, some are offensive, some are defensive. This happens 4 times for each skill. This is why the gap between 'good skills effects' and 'bad skill effects' is so large.

My suggestion would be twofold:
1) Categorize the skill effects you pick on levelup. Maybe the first and third gem are 'skill modifiers', while the second and third gem are 'global modifiers'. Or maybe 1+3 are 'offensive options' that might be local or global, while 2+4 are 'defensive'. It means the gap between good and bad is shrunk.

2) Redesign the "-1 ap" effect. The problem here is that the benefit grows geometrically. For a 5-ap ability, the first "-1 ap" is "-20% ap", the second is "-25% ap", third is "-33% ap", etc. It may not seem like a big difference, but players who are trying to min-max as hard as possible see this and know what it means. It means if -1 ap was a good idea the first time, it's an even better idea the second time.


Quote:Regarding your second point now. Well, Quests have Threat Levels (10) while characters span over 25 levels (15 for now, it's coming soon). So there's a margin of error within a specific T. Level to keep you guessing. Although the uncertainty can be removed by scouting the Quest ahead of time. If you hover over the enemies on the Quest description you can see their levels. Same thing during the Battles where the levels are shown and the resistances and damage types bonuses revealed if the Quest was scouted. All our Battle scenarios have been recently revised for the balance rehaul I was mentionning. The difficulty margin for each T. Level should be more precise.

The scouting is a very good point, but without scouting the battle, the only real answer here is 'an experienced player knows what those numbers should mean'. If you let that player run level 3 heroes into a TL3 quest without any sort of warning, he will get annihilated, and it is frustrating. But, it would also be lame to give a 'estimated chance to win' tell to the player about to attack the quest.

Maybe TL could sync up with the star ratings? I look at my roster and I see 4 heroes with 2 'filled' stars, so that would imply I'm in good shape for a 2-star quest? I'm only looking for some metric a player can use to know what quests his guy should be able to do. In addition to new players, there's also a player coming back to the game after a while and having to make the same judgement.


I didn't know there was a lot of new stuff in the works, but I'm excited to play it when it comes out! Thanks for the reply!
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#5
@fdsdfg

Thanks again for your feedback. It's important to be challenged when putting a game together. It becomes easy to loose track of some things when there's so much going on at the same time. Smile

First about Quest and TL. You can always have a good idea of how your party stacks up by having a look at your success chance. When entering a Quest with a party, you are offered to simulate the battle and there's a bar on top with gems that indicated your success chance. That plus the Quest TL plus whatever info you can get from scouting or even entering the fight and fleeing should it be too much seem like plenty.

Regarding your suggestions:
1- Doing that would assure characters are more specialized, but would limit the quantity of different build generated. Rarely will you recruit character that is already maxed out so a less than optimal choice in power up can be used to max up the skills from the next class(es) that character uses. Or you can only sign him for a short while if no recruits are up to par. My point being between your recruits, the equipement, and the consumables you should be ableto tackle pretty much any obstacles if you're careful about what you're doing. Albeit there are some aspect of the game that are yet to be tweaked but it is coming within a week or two. We started to put together new features while some of us worked on the balance so we will have to bring it all together in a big update. On top of that we will have Prestige Classes that are only available when a character had a specific career path (series of classes) so we might very well make the randomness less chaotic.

2-Yeah... the AP -1 effect. That F%&$" thing is bugging the heck out of me too. The most real and honest answer is the solution would require a big change to both code and UI. Instead of having a limited amount of AP (like 5-6 per turn) if you had like 30, or 50 AP then we could have items give +1, or +5 AP and it would not be such a big deal. In the current situation I'm kind of inclined toward removing that effet from equipment and most of the skill upgrades. We'll see, but let me tell you I know there's a issue here. On the other hand, it is a fun part of the game to chase that effect and the ability does accelerate combat. Anyway, we'll implement the major balance rehaul and a few features and we'll come back to skill, class builds, and AP when we're getting the Prestige classes together I guess.

Cheers!
Frank "Lalight" Lalumière
ManaVoid Entertainment Dev Team
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