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Salary Cap observation
#1
I was caught completely by surprise by the sudden appearance of the salary cap.  I know it's mentioned in passing in the tutorial, but it's not at all obvious how important it is; especially since you can hire a comparatively-expensive character moderately early and not realise that when renegotiations happen you're likely to hit that cap without being properly prepared for it.  
This was mostly triggered by the bad experience in my first couple of runs of the fame loss that came with failing an early quest that pretty much destroys your chances (and yes, I know this has been raised already.)  So next time round I hired extra folk to try and alleviate this; it turns out that you can't really do that either.  And whilst I know that part of the point of these sort of games is that they are kind of a celebration of the uber-capitalist mindset, I happen to be dangerously socialist in that I think that paying people a decent amount at the cost of "profit" is not necessarily a bad thing. Smile  And yes, I do appreciate the fragile balancing act that is needed here, because if players are allowed to break the salary cap concept, they will be running hyper-powerful teams very quickly and undermining the progression somewhat.  But it was definitely a negative experience as there was no real warning that I was taking a route that was perhaps unviable the moment I gave a lower-level character a raise...

(I want to stress that I'm loving the game to bits though and can live with things like a lack of sound control at this stage.  There are still a lot of counter-intuitive aspects, like how the portals work, but the execution is great and the graphics are gorgeous.  I would note that I also think that giving us 16 complete character classes right from the start feels a bit overwhelming too, but that may be just me!)
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#2
(06-10-2016, 11:00 AM)Scurra Wrote: I was caught completely by surprise by the sudden appearance of the salary cap.  I know it's mentioned in passing in the tutorial, but it's not at all obvious how important it is; especially since you can hire a comparatively-expensive character moderately early and not realise that when renegotiations happen you're likely to hit that cap without being properly prepared for it.  
This was mostly triggered by the bad experience in my first couple of runs of the fame loss that came with failing an early quest that pretty much destroys your chances (and yes, I know this has been raised already.)  So next time round I hired extra folk to try and alleviate this; it turns out that you can't really do that either.  And whilst I know that part of the point of these sort of games is that they are kind of a celebration of the uber-capitalist mindset, I happen to be dangerously socialist in that I think that paying people a decent amount at the cost of "profit" is not necessarily a bad thing. Smile  And yes, I do appreciate the fragile balancing act that is needed here, because if players are allowed to break the salary cap concept, they will be running hyper-powerful teams very quickly and undermining the progression somewhat.  But it was definitely a negative experience as there was no real warning that I was taking a route that was perhaps unviable the moment I gave a lower-level character a raise...

(I want to stress that I'm loving the game to bits though and can live with things like a lack of sound control at this stage.  There are still a lot of counter-intuitive aspects, like how the portals work, but the execution is great and the graphics are gorgeous.  I would note that I also think that giving us 16 complete character classes right from the start feels a bit overwhelming too, but that may be just me!)

Hi Scurra,

Thanks for letting us know how it went for you. Backer feedback is crucial to help us have some perspective after spending months building the game.
What I readily take away from your experience is the lack of context and information about the salary cap. The concept is taken from sports like Hockey where teams have an allowed amount of money to spend on the entire team. In Epic Manager's case, the salary cap is also a way the force the player to keep making difficult management decision about who to sign, how much to pay now or up front, when to let someone go, etc. Admittedly, some value balancing will have to be done. Also, we will most probably set the salary cap according to the league you are in and include more information about what is expected of the player, progression wise, in a specific league.
Now that you have more knowledge of the mechanic it would be interesting to see how things go for you. Like they say, knowing is half the battle, or something. Smile
Once you've played the game some, please take a second to complete our feedback form. It's a big help for us.

Thanks for the feedback!
Cheers.
Frank "Lalight" Lalumière
ManaVoid Entertainment Dev Team
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#3
I think that part of the problem is that the game doesn't give me any information at the time I need to make my decision. When I have to enter negotiation, all I can see is what the character is demanding (?) but nothing that really tells me what proportion of the total salary cap that the offer is going to be unless I write it all down somewhere else. So I feel like I am making the decision blind. What I need is something really obvious somewhere that shows me the salary cap for my level, the total I am current paying and what impact a raise will have on my ability to choose whether or not to stick with someone or consider replacing them with a new hire further down the line. I can't even properly compare my hires at the time I am negotiating a new contract; I would like to know how much everyone is being paid so that I have some context for the decision.

(edit: OK, so I now see that the total salary cap figure is given at the top of the screen, so at least I know where I stand in general, but it's still hard to know how an individual decision relates to the overall total budget when I can't see the comparative roster costs on the one screen where they would be useful!)

Yes, I will fill out the feedback form, but it's a bit, well, epic. Smile I had a look at it yesterday and decided that I was probably better off posting specific observations here until I've got a better handle on the overall structure.
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#4
(06-11-2016, 05:08 AM)Scurra Wrote: I think that part of the problem is that the game doesn't give me any information at the time I need to make my decision.  When I have to enter negotiation, all I can see is what the character is demanding (?) but nothing that really tells me what proportion of the total salary cap that the offer is going to be unless I write it all down somewhere else.  So I feel like I am making the decision blind.  What I need is something really obvious somewhere that shows me the salary cap for my level, the total I am current paying and what impact a raise will have on my ability to choose whether or not to stick with someone or consider replacing them with a new hire further down the line.  I can't even properly compare my hires at the time I am negotiating a new contract; I would like to know how much everyone is being paid so that I have some context for the decision.  

(edit: OK, so I now see that the total salary cap figure is given at the top of the screen, so at least I know where I stand in general, but it's still hard to know how an individual decision relates to the overall total budget when I can't see the comparative roster costs on the one screen where they would be useful!)

Yes, I will fill out the feedback form, but it's a bit, well, epic. Smile  I had a look at it yesterday and decided that I was probably better off posting specific observations here until I've got a better handle on the overall structure.

Hi again,

in fact while you're negotiating on the character sheet in the negotiation panel there's a green card with a blue arrow that shows the salary cap weight of the adventurer you are trying to sign after taking all variables (like length, upfront payment, champion, etc.) into account. You can also see your agency variables on the top bar, including the salaray cap available to you at the moment. (same green card with blue arrow icon). That being said there's probably not enough information given and we are going to revisit the salary cap and feedback/info given to players around that mechanic.

I do appreciate you taking the form seriously enough to give it some time. I know it's a bit long but we won't have many occasion to know what people think before we have the Early Access release on our hands say we want to get as complete a picture as we can from backers. Hopefully it won't stop too many people from completing it.

In the end, the more we know what the backers who like the game concept think of the game, the easier it becomes for us to push the game in that direction. Smile
Frank "Lalight" Lalumière
ManaVoid Entertainment Dev Team
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#5
One thing I find hard to handle so far is the contract of your first drafted hero, who has 5-star potential, which gives him about a 150-170 gold contract demand when he first comes up for negotiation, which is something that an agency with a 300 salary cap can hardly accomodate in addition to the other warm bodies that you need to keep running out.

My first time through I signed up to seven heroes to have some spares, but you just can't pay for them, even if they are LV 1-2 and picking their noses in HQ. Last run in 0.1.1 I had only five heroes and still couldn't fit them all into the cap after 24 weeks.

I haven't progressed deep enough to have much of a suggestion so far, though, although off the top of my hat increasing the cap to 400 for agency level 1 could be worth a try.
Win 7 64bit – i7-4700MQ 2.4GHz – 8GB RAM – AMD Radeon HD8970M --- (probably time to shove it off the cliff, I know)
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#6
(06-11-2016, 10:13 AM)DanielHall15 Wrote: One thing I find hard to handle so far is the contract of your first drafted hero, who has 5-star potential, which gives him about a 150-170 gold contract demand when he first comes up for negotiation, which is something that an agency with a 300 salary cap can hardly accomodate in addition to the other warm bodies that you need to keep running out.

My first time through I signed up to seven heroes to have some spares, but you just can't pay for them, even if they are LV 1-2 and picking their noses in HQ. Last run in 0.1.1 I had only five heroes and still couldn't fit them all into the cap after 24 weeks.

I haven't progressed deep enough to have much of a suggestion so far, though, although off the top of my hat increasing the cap to 400 for agency level 1 could be worth a try.

If you make him your champion, his salary doesn't count against the cap. I found that out by accident, because although I did find it documented somewhere else, it certainly isn't obvious.
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#7
Took me a couple times of starting and playing to get the hang of Salary caps. I'm currently set on getting everyone in the longest contracts I can afford to keep their priced low for as long as possible. LOetting go of high level adventurers is killer and I hate doing it every time. But business is business.
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#8
yes as long as they are still leveling go for 24 or 36m and do locked contract and downpayments if you can afford it, once they are "maxed" 12m ones do it as well (unless ofc you find a fallen star and they aren anymore Tongue)

also sell consumables and other items you don't really need - you will need the gold - especially to make 10k to be able to buy the lv 2 license and get a 2nd party
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#9
(06-11-2016, 10:43 AM)Ryan Downing Wrote: If you make him your champion, his salary doesn't count against the cap.  I found that out by accident, because although I did find it documented somewhere else, it certainly isn't obvious.

The champion mechanic was broken in 0.1.0 however Wink ... and you still gotta pay him, and at times I'm struggling with coins, too.

Like I said, I don't have played nearly enough to make a really qualified assessment for this.
Win 7 64bit – i7-4700MQ 2.4GHz – 8GB RAM – AMD Radeon HD8970M --- (probably time to shove it off the cliff, I know)
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#10
It looks like re-negotiating is a big problem for a lot of players. I was surprised by the sudden salary raise asked by the heroes.

This said, the game do works fine, and is fun to play.

My maybe-suggestions are as follow :

1) The "Champion" checkbox should be checked by default and stay checked for the first character (unless the player unchecks it at re-nego)

2) The raise of the salary asked by heroes as they level-up is "surprising".  
2a) Maybe prevent the heroes from level-upping too fast (Level-up Cap by license, maybe), and/or slow down experience gains (ie : fighting lower-level creatures should give less XP).
2b) Maybe change the random encounters' level. Currently, random encounters give the most XP since their level matches the party, and they don't give Items/gold. Since it makes the heroes level-up, it raises their salary, and you reach the salary cap quicker. On the opposite, quests encounters are fine because you gain gold and loot.
2c) Maybe display somewhere what salary the Heroes "wish" to be paid (and the total of that sum), so you can see at level-up that "Oh, I'm going to bust my salary cap", and predict things a bit better. (I know this is not possible currently, but that's the kind of tool needed). Or maybe make a salary guesstimator : a tool where you can guesstimate how much salary you think you're gonna pay at re-nego.

Thanks :-)
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#11
I don't understand the salary cap. I thought it existed to create "fair competition" between the different teams in a same league (even if they are not equally rich), but in the game it is tied to the License, which is an abstract concept where you can hire better player if you're rich and famous.

I suggest the salary cap to be moved from the "License" to the "League", so it makes more sense.
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#12
We are going to come up with a significant update on the Agency Research panel that's going to modify when the salary cap changes as well as other Agency progression markers in the next week or two. We'll make sure to take good note of this precious feedback you are providing when the time for that comes. Smile

Again, thanks. XD
Frank "Lalight" Lalumière
ManaVoid Entertainment Dev Team
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#13
I look forward for improvements. As long as it allows for more than one strategy. For example : I'd like to have the option of either having a small team of high level heroes, or a large team of mid-level, that I switch/rotate each time they level-up, so they are all the same level. I feel the Salary cap only allows one kind of strategy.

I think I would prefer if negotiations were more simple like, having the choice of offering a salary (as now) or ask the hero what salary she wants.
"The hero asks for 100 gold" : accept (100% success) or negotiate.

Keep it up! I look forward for what is next :-)
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#14
In a way, the hero tells you what he wants. Imagine a success bar that is as green as it gets. That's what the hero wants. And you're trying to cheapen him by such-and-such an amount below that.
Win 7 64bit – i7-4700MQ 2.4GHz – 8GB RAM – AMD Radeon HD8970M --- (probably time to shove it off the cliff, I know)
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#15
I know, it's just that the default value can either make the hero happy, angry or enrage him completely at the same time. Feels off a bit.
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#16
With a 900 salary cap, I had the 8 following heroes for my 2 parties :
- 3 x 1star
- 3 x 2stars
- 1 x 3stars
- 1 x 5stars Champion (not counted)

I reached a salary of 890, and I eventually had to get rid of a 1star hero because the 3star went over level 10, so back to 7 people now.
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#17
(06-24-2016, 04:39 AM)Jean-François Pruneau Wrote: With a 900 salary cap, I had the 8 following heroes for my 2 parties :
- 3 x 1star
- 3 x 2stars
- 1 x 3stars
- 1 x 5stars Champion (not counted)

I reached a salary of 890, and I eventually had to get rid of a 1star hero because the 3star went over level 10, so back to 7 people now.

Hi again, we will upload a rehaul of the Agency research that's going to make the progression a bit smoother by spanning it on more levels.

Maybe we will need to address the salary asked by Adventurers as well. It remains to be confirmed, but we cannot change too many variables at the same time or it because really hard to tell what cause the outcome we're faced with.

That being said, keep trying out different builds and let us know how it goes. 

Cheers
Frank "Lalight" Lalumière
ManaVoid Entertainment Dev Team
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#18
Removing the champion's "ability" to not count against the salary cap in 0.1.6 makes the way to the the second licence even more like hell. I just got my party blown up yet again because there is NO way to fit four LV 5 adventurers into the 300 gold salary cap anymore.

I'm all FOR the salary cap in general. But the 300 limit is completely ridiculous with the way that four adventurers will ALWAYS level up faster than the agency can with the way there are way more encounters that grant XP than fame.
Win 7 64bit – i7-4700MQ 2.4GHz – 8GB RAM – AMD Radeon HD8970M --- (probably time to shove it off the cliff, I know)
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#19
(06-26-2016, 01:55 AM)DanielHall15 Wrote: Removing the champion's "ability" to not count against the salary cap in 0.1.6 makes the way to the the second licence even more like hell. I just got my party blown up yet again because there is NO way to fit four LV 5 adventurers into the 300 gold salary cap anymore.

I'm all FOR the salary cap in general. But the 300 limit is completely ridiculous with the way that four adventurers will ALWAYS level up faster than the agency can with the way there are way more encounters that grant XP than fame.

Indeed, and with the way the contracts are negotiated, it feels you have no control on who you're gonna keep, and who you're gonna leave behind, because you cannot just sack someone when you have a hard decision to make, you have to plan in advance, without knowing what's coming.
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#20
yeah you probably should see all your adventureres listed that aren't locked whenever any contract negotiation is up - so you can sack someone that is less valueable if the current negotations don't go too well and you would go over cap
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